The following is part five of an eight part Catholic Response to an actual letter from an Evangelical Protestant wherein he listed off eight common objections to Catholicism. To read the actual letter in its entirety, please click here
Protestant Objection #5:
According to Roman Catholic Doctrine, those who die without grace go to hell. Those who die in a "State of
Protestant Answer:
The Bible teaches that your destination is determined at death where you are going to be forever in HELL OR HEAVEN (Heb 9:27, Luke 16:12-31). Christ delivered us from the fear of death and from being bondage to it (Heb 14-15). Jesus became our purgatory and took our hell (Heb 1:3).
The above is a miniature on vellum by the Precursor of Master of Zweder van Culemborg circa 1425. It is entitled, "Two Souls in Purgatory."
Catholic Response #5 - Purgatory
On to your fifth topic...
You said:
5.) According to the Roman Catholic Doctrine, " those who die without grace go to hell. Those who die in a "State of
Hmmm...not quite...
Let's take this one sentence at a time:
According to the Roman Catholic Doctrine...
I think you already know my comment here so I will let it go. ;-)
...those who die without grace go to hell.
Of course this is not only Catholic doctrine but the doctrine of all Christians everywhere. Surely you agree that one cannot enter heaven without grace.
We are saved by grace and all Christians - both Catholic and Protestant alike - agree on that. Thus...those who die outside of grace will go to hell since they cannot enter heaven without grace and therefore - as you have correctly stated elsewhere - since there are only two ultimate destinations (heaven or hell) that means that this person will reside in hell. I bet we agree here.
Those who die in a "State of
Not quite. NOT everybody who dies in a "state of grace" (all that term means is that the person has God-given grace within them) will go to purgatory although ALL who die in a graceful state WILL go to heaven. SOME especially holy and saintly people will bypass purgatory and go straight to heaven.
...to suffer for the sins they committed on earth.
Those who go to purgatory will suffer for their sins on earth (you have correctly stated our belief in that), but there is much more that needs to be said in that regard. I will comment further on this later in this letter.
Hopefully my explanation will clarify things a bit for you.
Mass is for family members and friends to shorten up the time out of suffering by their good deed and Mass services.
Actually, Mass is primarily for the worship of God. But, yes, we can say a "Mass intention" (a prayer said during Mass where we ask God for special things dear to us) for the expressed “intention” of easing the suffering of those in purgatory (whether our intention is acted upon by God is strictly up to Him – He does not “owe” us anything).
Since the afterlife is in eternity - which is outside of time - it is difficult to really quantify if we can "shorten up the time" (What time? There is no time in eternity) - but - we can try to ease their suffering and hasten (again - a time concept - and so I would say "hasten" only insofar as such a thing can apply) their journey.
As for "good deeds" you must understand that those deeds that are "good" are only "good" if **God** deems them to be. He sets the standards - not us.
Again remember the deeds of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector - both did the same basic "deeds" but their interior motives for doing them determined if they were "good" in God's eyes or not.
Here - deeds that fail be "good" in God's eyes do nothing for anyone in purgatory (or anywhere else for that matter).
Answer: The Bible teaches that your destination is determine at death where you are going to be forever HELL OR HEAVEN. Heb 9:27, Luke 16:12-31. Christ delivered us from the fear of death and from being bondage to it. Heb 14-15. He became our purgatory and took our hell. Heb 1:3.
Well...let me first explain what we really teach (because you seem to totally misunderstand it) and then I will come back to this and make my comments accordingly.
Contrary to what you imply here, we too, believe that our eternal destination will be either heaven or hell - purgatory is not considered a third eternal destiny.
Rather, those who have been judged by God to be among the "saved" but still lack holiness to the degree that is required to reside in heaven (where nothing unclean can enter) MAY enter into a *temporary* state of purgation (i.e., Purgatory) whereby their sinful inclinations are removed.
Thus, it is no "second chance" (as many Protestants inaccurately believe we teach) since those who are eternally condemned to hell have no need or desire for cleansing and those who are undergoing cleansing are doing so for the sole purpose of preparing themselves for eternity in heaven (why else would they be undergoing the process in the first place if not for heaven?).
In other words - those in Purgatory have already been judged by God and are already heaven bound. Contrarily, those who are hell bound do not even get a glimpse of Purgatory.
Protestants believe in Purgatory too - except that they don't really realize it, in my opinion.
Let me explain:
All Christians believe that, as a result of our fall in the Garden of Eden, something is "missing" from our very nature. We are fallen and incomplete.
As a result of our fallen-ness we have disordered appetites, a weakened will, a darkened intellect, and an inclination to sin (even though we may not want to). Calvinists would call it our "depraved" nature.
In any case, we are unable to lead lives pleasing to God without the special aid of grace to strengthen us in our walk of faith. All Christians believe this.
Now - that said - all Christians also believe that those souls that are in heaven are in a state of perfection. They are transformed and sanctified (i.e., pure and holy) and entirely without sin or even the inclination to sin (Revelation
Whatever it was that was "missing" in our nature while on earth (in Latin we call it our "macula" - or "dark spot" needing the light of grace - that is where we get the word "immaculate") is somehow restored. As the Scriptures tell us: nothing unclean can enter heaven.
Let's recap some beliefs held in common by all Christians – both Protestant and Catholic (as I have discussed them so far):
1. Our eternal destiny will either be heaven or hell.
2. All humans have a fallen nature that precludes us from entering heaven or being viewed as righteous without the special aid of grace.
3. All beings in heaven are perfected and without blemish. Their natures have been restored and abide without an inclination to sin. Since nothing unclean can enter heaven, much less reside there for eternity, it can be safely believed that these beings are NOT unclean - in fact they are "immaculate" and grace-filled.
Have I misrepresented your views? I would guess not. All Christians believe what I just listed above.
Therefore we all agree that here on earth we are fallen but in heaven we are sanctified and made holy and restored to a "clean" nature that can abide in heaven.
Soooo...somewhere between here (on earth) and there (in heaven) a *transformation* happens whereby we enter a state of "final sanctification" (which is a term commonly and primarily used by Protestants to describe the pure and holy state of beings in heaven). In heaven we not only SAY that we are clean, pure, and holy...but rather we ARE these things and more ***by our very own natures which were restored to us by God***. All Christians believe this.
Sooo...the question becomes this: is this transformation something that is always and necessarily instantaneous and without "experience" (in other words - we don't "experience" it - rather - it just instantly happens) - or - can it sometimes be a "process" of unknown duration?
By that I mean that maybe the transformation is instant or maybe not (in eternity it is tough to think in terms of "time"). And perhaps, as Catholics believe, it is something "experiential" (i.e., something that we "experience" and are aware of as we undergo it).
The Protestant position is that this transformation is ALWAYS and NECESSARILY instantaneous and NEVER experiential even though there is nothing in Scripture that compels us to believe so. There is not one Bible verse that tells us that we will be unaware of the transformation (the "final sanctification") while it is occurring.
And so there are two matters that a Catholic needs to demonstrate to a Protestant from Scripture to bolster the notion that Purgatory is not an impossibility:
Number One - a case must be made from Scripture that there IS a state of being that is NOT the hell of eternal damnation nor is it the Blessedness of the Beatific Vision that is heaven.
Number Two - a case from Scripture that our transformation into a sanctified nature (a nature that is pure and able to abide in heaven) that has been freed from our previous fallen nature (our former inclination to sin) CAN be something that we EXPERIENCE and are AWARE of - and even sometimes suffer through during the process.
Let's look at Number One and see what the Bible can tell us.
Let's begin by keeping in mind that Jesus did tell us that His "…Father's kingdom has many mansions" (John 14:2).
One of the best hints in the Bible of another "state of being" can be found at
But...here is the interesting point...Jesus DID NOT GO TO HEAVEN ON THAT DAY.
In fact this is easily verified by what the Resurrected Jesus said to Mary Magdalene AT THE TOMB three days AFTER He died on the Cross (John 20:17):
Jesus said to her, "Do not hold me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brethren and say to them, I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God."
The above artwork is an icon from Crete dated sometime in the 16th century. It is entitled "Do Not Touch Me" and depicts the narrative of John 20:17 in which Mary Magdalene kneels before the Resurrected Lord before His tomb. Jesus said to her, "Do not touch me; for I am not ascended to my Father...", thereby providing strong Biblical evidence that the "Paradise" that Christ and the Good Thief went to on the day of their crucifixion was not heaven, but rather mysteriously somewhere else other than heaven. But where?
Where was He (and the Good Thief too) on that day?
According to Ephesians 4:8-10 here is where He went during the three days before the Resurrection:
"8 Therefore it is said, "When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men." 9 (In saying, "He ascended," what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is he who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.)"
And 1 Peter 3:19-20 confirms this:
"19 in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water."
Soooo...on "this day" in which the Good Thief would be with Him *in
Simply stated, Jesus did NOT enter heaven until His Ascension - forty days AFTER the Cross!
What is more, if Jesus WAS in Heaven why was He preaching to those who abided there? Since they were already in heaven no preaching would be necessary - and - if they were in hell then no amount of preaching would do any good (since damnation is forever). Plus - if Jesus was in Heaven then why does Scripture refer to a "prison" (1 Peter
Also - if He was in hell preaching to "captives" in "prison", then why would He have told the Good Thief that they would be together that very day in "
Therefore, on the day of His Crucifixion, Jesus did not go to heaven nor did He go to hell to preach.
Another interesting hint of other states of being comes from these three Biblical passages:
10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Philippians 2:10-11
And no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll or to look into it. Revelation 5:3
Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, singing, “To the one seated on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever." Revelation
So here is a very good question with regard to these three passages and their references to those "under the earth":
Scripture plainly tells us that God refuses to receive worship (or prayer or praise) from the unrepentant sinner (Psalm 66:18, Proverbs 1:28-30, Isaiah 1:15, 59:2, Jeremiah 6:20, Amos 5:21-24, Micah 3:4, Malachi 1:10, John 9:31, Hebrews 10:38).
If that is the case, then WHY would He permit those who are condemned and in hell forever to undertake this practice?
He wouldn’t.
Therefore the phrase "under the earth" *must* refer to purgatory.
This is especially so in the case of Revelation
Yet, here is the utter difficulty with the view that there is no third place (whereby the righteous dead can attain purity and holiness before entering heaven): these three passages clearly shows us that some righteous dead people DO, in fact, praise God from "under the earth."
Thus the Protestant notion that the righteous dead MUST go **straight to heaven** - and NEVER ANY OTHER “PLACE” is shown to be flawed for the simple reason that the group "under the earth" is CONTRASTED as a separate entity not to be included with those “on earth” and “in heaven.”
The counter-argument from Protestants that the phrase "under the earth" must be a metaphor that includes ALL dead righteous people (who, according to Protestant theology, are in heaven) renders the wording of all three passages as repetitive and absurd.
It would make the Sacred Text to be saying something like, "Those in heaven, and on earth, and in heaven."
That is redundant and problematic from a linguistic perspective.
Obviously, the only reasonable explanation is for us to admit to the biblically illustrated existence of a third state of being from which worshipful praise to God can come “under the earth” (as distinct from the praises coming from the righteous who are “on earth” – such as from you and me – and from those who are “in heaven”).
It is this third state of being that Catholics believe is a portion of the Church that exists *temporarily* on the doorstep of heaven.
Let's look now at Number Two and see if the Bible tells us that our inner transformation from an earthly depraved nature to a pure heavenly nature without inclination to sin is something that we may be aware of as it is happening - and that we may actually suffer through. Please note that I said “may be” in that we believe that not everybody will go to Purgatory – some will go straight to heaven – and so the awareness and suffering that I refer to is not necessarily something experienced by everyone who is heaven bound.
1 Corinthians 3:11-15:
11 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw-- 13 each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
Here we see Scripture describing a time of judgment ("for the Day") in which there will be "reward" and also "loss". Here the person will see their personal work (that is to say work that was done on one's own outside of God's grace - works done under grace are not a man's work but rather God's work done within - these works will be abiding and will not suffer loss).
So even though they will be "saved" they WILL experience loss (a painful thing) and even experience their salvation "but only as through fire." THAT, my friend, describes something that we will "experience" and it will sanctify us after our judgment - but before entering into heaven.
So this begs a very serious question - and one that vexes all Protestants. And that question is: if Christ's atonement is "sufficient" for the salvation of the world then WHY the need to have us "experience" our sanctification. What does our "suffering" add to the finished work of the Atonement on the Cross.
The answer to that question is: it adds nothing - Christ's sacrifice IS
sufficient.
As to "why" we are made to suffer is really a mystery with no clear answer - other than to point to how it is that God chooses to "Father" us.
For example, if my child disobeys me and goes outside to play instead of doing her homework and then breaks a neighbor's window in the process there will be trouble waiting for her when I find out. If she is truly sorry (not sorry that she got caught but truly sorry for her disobedience) and expresses her repentance I will certainly forgive her.
But then AFTER she is forgiven - she WILL still have to pay for the broken window PLUS she may have some other punishment so that she will *experience* chastisement and so better learn her lesson. That is what a good father does - even though it is *momentarily* painful.
It is simply a part of the human condition that we do happen to learn our lessons better when we physically experience the object of the lesson – we are less apt to learn if we merely are told something.
This principle is shown in Hebrews 12:5-13, which reads:
"And have you forgotten the exhortation which addresses you as sons? --'My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor lose courage when you are punished by him. 6 For the Lord disciplines him whom he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives.' 7 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9 Besides this, we have had earthly fathers to discipline us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they disciplined us for a short time at their pleasure, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. 11 For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. 12 Therefore lift your drooping hands and strengthen your weak knees, 13 and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be put out of joint but rather be healed."
Here the author IS writing to SAVED BELIEVERS who have already been saved by the finished and sufficient sacrifice on the Cross. Agreed?
And yet the passage speaks of "chastisement" and “discipline” meant for the “good” of the person so that they will "share His holiness". Therefore it is entirely Scriptural to believe that God will offer "temporal" (meaning temporary and NOT eternal) punishments so that those who *experience* them will be made more holy.
Since Purgatory is temporary and not eternal - and is intended to make one holier - then this concept is shown to be compatible with Scripture.
While it is true that the above Scripture just as easily applies to those temporal punishments we receive on this earth as a result of our sins (for example, if we get drunk we will suffer from a hangover – hopefully “teaching” us that getting drunk is not good for us), it is likewise true that it is the principle itself of a loving Father who disciplines His believing children that we are to focus on. That is the overall message of the above passage.
And in that regard, even though Christ’s Atonement IS sufficient enough to save the entire world, it is the Catholic position that God STILL chooses, nonetheless, to discipline His children to “share His holiness.” This notion is in perfect accord with WHY it is that there is suffering for those who are watching their earthly works burn up before them (1 Corinthians 3:11-15) while undergoing the process of final sanctification (Purgatory).
And so, we can say that when we die, we - as depraved and fallen creatures - die less than perfect...we die with a weakened will, a darkened intellect, and an inclination to sin. We - in this condition - are NOT fit to reside in heaven where nothing unclean can enter.
That is why ALL Christians – Catholic and Protestant alike – believe that all persons who die in a state of grace (i.e., “saved”) and judged for heaven will undergo "final sanctification." Their very nature itself will be made holy and incapable of sin.
The only question becomes - will this be something that happens instantly without any possibility of experience (what I call the "zap" theory) - or - will it be a case where it is a process (which is of unknown duration and maybe even instant) that we experience?
The Scriptural evidence tells us that: there can be other states of being - there can be loss experienced during our time of judgment - that nothing unclean can enter heaven - all that is unclean will be burned away - and that God does sometimes chastise His children in order to teach them holiness.
There is no Biblical evidence to support the theory that our final sanctification is ALWAYS and NECESSARILY instant and without experience.
Lastly, I want to make it plain to you that there will be joy in Purgatory too.
Why joy?
It is precisely because the "experience" of the "pain" we will feel will most likely be a **burning love and desire** to be with God. It is God's burning love by which we will see our false works from our lifetime burn away while leaving the pure, loving, and Godly aspects of our life to stand as a testament of God's grace working within us.
So likewise we will also experience great JOY in the anticipation of entering heaven. Please recall the JOYOUS praises for God from those “under the earth”.
Purgatory is the anteroom to heaven and it is NOT a place between heaven and hell.
I hope this explanation helps a little - there is certainly much more to discuss on this topic and I barely hit a few highlights.
The above is an oil painting on wood from the Workshop of Peter Paul Rubens circa 1630-33. It is entitled "St. Teresa of Ávila Interceding for Souls in Purgatory."
To go to Part 6, “Bowing to Statues and Idolatry,” please click here.